What was it like breaking into wrestling in the post-television era?
I just started training about 88, 89 when they’d just come off the TV and then I had my first match in 1991. Even by then the business was still quite busy. There was still lots of shows going on every night. I was doing the holiday camps, which were really busy: I was possibly doing about 14 shows a week on the holiday camp circuit and various halls up and down the country. Then possibly a year or two after that, Brian Dixon started bringing over American wrestlers and that’s when business was still pretty good but it started going downhill for people like Max and Big Daddy.
How useful was your wrestling experience in becoming a referee?
It was crucial. People come up and say “I want to learn to be a referee” and I say to learn to wrestle or at least go to a school and learn that side of things. You get a better understanding of a referee’s role when you’ve actually wrestled yourself.
When I started, I’d get the crap kicked out of me until I started to learn how to [really] wrestle before anyone would even show me anything. It was literally just going down to Bridlington Spa every Monday night during the summer to have a wrestler go in and just tie me up and destroy me. Then when I’d keep coming back they’d show me a few things.
A lot of guys now don’t want to be wrestlers and not everyone can be a wrestler. I wasn’t the greatest wrestler and I found my niche when I started refereeing, but because of my understanding of how a wrestler works, it made it easy for me transitioning to become a referee.
You’ve been around many different periods and places in wrestling. What does it take to be able to survive and even thrive consistently?
You definitely need your wits about you because there’s always someone who’ll take advantage or treat you like a mug. You need people skills, and etiquette – that was drilled into me, professionalism and etiquette when you’re in the changing room.
Sit down, be quiet, don’t speak until you’re spoken to, but also make sure you introduce yourself to everybody, whoever it is. Anyone who’s in that room is there for a reason. And that’s changed unfortunately: you’ll see guys come in and they won’t introduce themselves to anybody, they’ll just sit with a little close circle of friends. If you did that back in the day, you’d probably end up getting a leg broke or scurfed badly.
Over the years I’ve met a lot of people and got on with a lot of people. I book the wrestlers for the Showmasters who do the Comic Cons and I’ve built up a good reputation there where people know who I am. If they don’t, there’s word of mouth – I’ve got so many good contacts through word of mouth from people who’ve worked with me.
You’ve seen many “next big things” and “rebirths of British wrestling” over the years. What mistakes have you seen and do you speak out when you see them being repeated?
It’s quite depressing! A lot of people have good ideas but when it comes to the execution, they never quite hit the nail on the head. Sometimes people don’t have the mental capacity to keep it going or they’ve underestimated how much money to set aside on the company or they’ve expected to make their business a success quicker than it was, and they’ve run out of money.
I’ll absolutely give advice but it’s down to that person whether they want to take that advice on board. I’ll give you an example: there was this guy started running “an evening with” shows and he got in touch because he knew I’d booked a lot of American talent coming into the UK. And we sat down to chat and I couldn’t get a word in edgeways: he was like “Oh, I’m friends with this person and friends with that person.” I literally said “It’s pointless – you know everything, you do not need my help, you’ve obviously got everything covered.” And I left it at that and then five or six months later [he was finished.]
There’s been quite a lot of people who were like “We know what we’re doing, we’ve run businesses” and then they were fucked.
I will speak up. When I first started or even 15 years ago I wouldn’t say anything, but now I’ll say “If you do it that way, you’re going to lose money or you’re going to make a mistake.” I’m very happy to give advice but it’s down to them if they’re going to listen to it.
How do you figure out if people are trustworthy and reliable when you first start doing business with them?
When sounding out someone, I don’t think you can do it straight away unless they’re blatantly obvious they’re going to try and do something dodgy. But I always put it to the first month or two months from starting to do something, that’s when you can kind of suss out whether they’re legit or something’s going to go tits up
Now, if somebody approaches me and wants me to work with them, I always get a written agreement now. So I always, always make sure my stuff’s in place and if they can’t satisfy that, that would set alarm bells off from a straight away. If they can’t do the little things first before going into negotiations with other people then, it’s generally not a good sign
What’s your biggest headache with booking wrestlers for events?
There’s been one or two where they’ll get booked for a convention and then nearer the time you’ll see that they’re doing an evening show somewhere. Well, you can’t really do that. You come in, you’re being flown over by a promotion, they’re paying for your hotel, they’re paying for your food, they’re paying you a fee. And then you’re still trying to go out and make up an extra few hundred dollars but on somebody else’s flight ticket. I’ll just say that those people, they’ve never come back [for me.]
What have you learned about dealing with new promotions?
I think with wrestlers, it was a very carny business back in the day. So it was like, “Oh, we need to make as much money as we can.” Like when a new promotion comes up, the majority of the wrestling mentality was “Oh well, let’s get as much out of that as you can now and not worry about the next six months.” My philosophy has always been help them out and keep them going. The longer they go, the longer I’ve got work. I think if you help someone out and that business runs for a long time and you’re loyal, then you’re going to get work for a long time.
What’s the biggest lesson you’ve learned in wrestling?
Respect. You have to have respect for the business and for the people working with you and within the business. Since day one, even before I started, I always had a lot of respect for wrestlers and wrestling itself and that goes a long way. You don’t get on with everybody: nobody in the real world gets on with everyone. But at least if you can respect each other professionally, then you’ll probably go a long way.
What are you going to miss the most about refereeing?
Well, my knees are getting better now but I won’t miss waking up stiff in the morning and trying to get out of bed until my knees start to work! But definitely the the comradery because obviously you’ve been around a lot of these guys for a lot of years and you’re on the road with them. So you’re seeing them fairly regularly and now it’s like, okay, I’m not seeing these guys as much. I went to Germany few weeks ago and it was great because after the show we were all chilling out and having a beer or glass of wine and just chatting.
That’s one of the main things when you’re doing that week in, week out, and then all of a sudden you’re not on shows every week and you’re not on the road. It’s both a blessing and a curse because when you are on the road, you want to be at home and you say, oh, I can’t wait to go home and spend time at home. And then when you home, you’re like, I wonder what the rest of the boys are up to. And so you can’t win, you can’t be happy either way!
What’s been the biggest change over your career?
Back then you waited on somebody calling you up [for a booking] and now it works totally different. Everyone’s chasing and you know, putting themselves out. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, I’m just saying that’s the way it is now. Emailing promoters and sending out a CV is not something that I ever did [in the early years] and I never felt comfortable with doing either because it wasn’t the way I was taught, the way people showed you when I came into the business. Sending off CVs and sending YouTube videos etc that just wasn’t a thing back then because the Internet and social media wasn’t a big thing in the 90s.
Do you have any regrets about your career?
The one thing I‘d love to have done, the one place I haven’t been is Japan. I’d still like to go to Japan and work in Japan before I kick the bucket. You know, that nearly did happen and then I broke my arm. I was meant to go to Japan and do something for a promotion with Jimmy Suzuki. Unfortunately I was refereeing a show in Southampton and Mark Haskins accidentally kicked me in my arm and snapped my radius, so then I couldn’t go. But hey ho: I always think things happen for a reason.
